We talk alot about quantity and risk of sex, but what about quality of sex?
N: So what I'm interviewing people about is what it's like to be a counselor, what you get out of it, difficult experiences, reflections on organizational structure of the clinic and how that's influenced your counseling style or comparing it to other places. So. Anwywhere you want to start. So you've been counseling for about three years. And
C: Uh huh. HHH I've noticed that over the last three years, originally my counseling was sporadic, I would counsel twice a week for like four months and then I wouldn't counsel for a month or two and then I would come back, sometimes three times or four times in a row, then take three times off, and then do the uh..but I've found over the last year what I'm doing is counseling, because I do get a lot out of it, uhm, it's one of, I've done different types of volunteer work and it's the only work that I've done that I get this sort of instants results, rapport with clients, or you don't, which can happen, you KNOW if they're hearing you.
N:How do you know?
C: Cause you can tell. Uhm. How can I tell. Because I can see it in their eyes and I can hear it in their response and whether or not they get excited because they're getting new information and their body language, everything, if you get through to somebody, it's obvious.
N: So there's a satisfaction in teaching people like something new and seeing them excited about it.
C: And connecting, and also one of the biggest things for me, in doing HIV counseling, is just talking to people about sex because so many people that I talk to don't feel safe talking about sex with anybody. I don't know how many women have said to me I don't know if my friends masturbate, we can't talk about that, we can't talk about masturbating. You know like Hello? What is it like 1997? And we can't talk about masturbating?
N: So who brings up like these kind of sex issues.
C: Sometimes the clients, but if they don't I do.
N: How do you bring it up? When?
C: Usually I bring it up as I'm following the form when I first start talking to them about, for doing the whole thing about when's the last time, first ask them do you sleep with men,women, or both, and then if their answer is men, well have you ever slept with a woman, how long ago, right, then I'll go right to what they do, what is sex to you, what do you do, and I show them the form and say OK this is what we're gonna be filling out, this is what the Office of Aids wants to know if, when you do this act, how long ago you did it, if you've done it in the last whatever timeframe, and if you're using any barriers, just so they have some idea why I'm asking the questions that I'm asking, and so then we're talking about regular heterosexual intercourse, penis/vagina, and I'll ask someone what that means, I'll ask them if they use condoms, do you have any trouble with condoms, no, oh, so they're comfortable, well no,
N: This is a woman or man?
C: Woman or a man.
N: OK.
C: Ok. Well, in what way are they not comfortable, like where do you have the breakdown. Well have you tried lube, if they're feeling a pulling, is it on the instroke or the outstroke, and you know really talking to them. Other things that you can do if you don't like condoms, like well, you know, you can have sex without having intercourse, and talking about that and what sex means and when people have their orgasms and just, it can be all be fitted into the form.
N: Yeah I've recently started talking about orgasm timing because I find it's a real interesting area where people, it would never come up unless I really specifically bring it up, and uhm, it's been some of the more interesting discussion, you know, how do you talk about orgasm timing or expectations around orgasms?
C: You know, I don't think I really talk about expectations, I talk, my assumption is that men expect to always have orgasms. Ok.
N: Right.
C: With women who sleep with men, or uhm, men and women, but especially women who sleep with men only, I talk to them, as I'm going in with the condom thing, well does it feel good, like are you coming?, like how's it working for you, are you getting what you want, are you communicating around sex?
N: Like at the end I've been saying are you getting the kind of sex that you want, and it's usually led to interesting discussions. So what do you recommend if say a woman says well I don't know, I feel like I should be coming, you know, he comes and he enters me but it just doesn't feel exciting to me, what would you say?
C: Do you masturbate, that's the first thing I would say. Uhm. Some women will say I don't masturbate. To which I respond with well if you don't know what makes you feel good how can you expect him to? Right. So go home and practise, there's great books on it, I've told people to go to good vibes and buy masturbation books. I ask women a lot why they're sleeping with people, men or women, who they can't talk to about sex. Why are you sleeping with someone if you can't tell them what you want? This is an area where, this is like so intimate that you should be able to communicate, like how does it feel for you not to be able to communicate and uhm, if you could say something to them what would you say, and trying to do a little, I don't know, I don't like characterizing it as a role play because I think of role plays as being more structured than what I do, pretend I'm this person, and you know, that's wierd, and especially gets really wierd if I'm in there talking to a woman being a lesbian, you know, like pretending you're talking to your lover or straight, well you know the dynamic can just get way out there so, what I say is well what would you say? Well what do you think their response would be, what's your fear. What's your bottom line fear. It's similar to this whole thing about the way I talk to women about getting guys to use condoms.
N: Uh huh.
C: And I tell them it was really hard for me, when I was having sex with men, you know to say use a condom, but with hindsight being what it is, I realize that anyone who wanted to have sex with me would have used a condom if I had said you know what, this is it, we're either using condoms or we're not having sex. I said if someone really wants you they're gonna wear a condom, you know, that's what I say and it's true I think, and if a condom is too much trouble for somebody, do you want to sleep with them? So it, I don't know, it's hard.
N: So you're modeling, you're not doing role play so much as modeling attitude about sex
C: And trying to get them to say I think is what's important is not to say what they expect their partner's response to be but what they fear their partner's response might be. So, we're looking at the fear of
N: What's the difference generally, they would expect them to say?
C: Well rationally they might expect them to say uhm, ok, it's difficult but we'll try it, but their fear would be that their response is that no, you're not worth the trouble, that's it, I'm out of here.
N: I'm not in the mood anymore.
C: Not just I'm not in the mood anymore but you're no longer someone I want to be sexual with. I'll go find someone else.
N: Rejection with a big R.
This conversation continues: Shame words
Index of test counselor narratives
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